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Interpretari moderne ale Decalogului
polihronu
post May 30 2010, 09:31 AM
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Maybe this helps.

LE Sau asta biggrin.gif

ELE Nu ratati acest rezumat, linkat in articolul indicat de pe wiki.


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icsicsics
post May 30 2010, 09:59 AM
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smile.gif

hai sa facem o treaba: cine intreaba un pastor sau un responsabil bisericesc despre descoperirea lui study?

experiment pretestat fix acum doua saptamani, aici.


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Ianis
post May 30 2010, 10:04 AM
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study_nature, vazand versiunile enumerate de tine sunt tentat sa le ordonez dupa criteriile folosite de programatori in lumea software.

Astfel, in loc de ordonarea de genul: versiunea 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 samd, care sugereaza ideea de versiuni finale, complete, fara probleme, as folosi o clasificare de genul: versiunea 0.1 beta, 0.2 beta, 0.3 beta, 0.4 beta care sugereaza ideea ca sunt versiuni de test:) la care se lucreaza.

Ramane de vazut care din versiunile din Biblie sunt mai aproape de versiunea finala si care din ele nu cumva sunt versiuni alfa, adica unele brute, abia iesite din compliator, cu posibile erori de functionare.


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I’m afraid to be alive without being aware of it
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study_nature
post May 30 2010, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (icsicsics @ May 30 2010, 12:59 PM) *
smile.gif

hai sa facem o treaba: cine intreaba un pastor sau un responsabil bisericesc despre descoperirea lui study?

QUOTE (Ianis @ May 30 2010, 01:04 PM) *
study_nature, vazand versiunile enumerate de tine sunt tentat sa le ordonez dupa criteriile folosite de programatori in lumea software.

Astfel, in loc de ordonarea de genul: versiunea 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 samd, care sugereaza ideea de versiuni finale, complete, fara probleme, as folosi o clasificare de genul: versiunea 0.1 beta, 0.2 beta, 0.3 beta, 0.4 beta care sugereaza ideea ca sunt versiuni de test:) la care se lucreaza.

Ramane de vazut care din versiunile din Biblie sunt mai aproape de versiunea finala si care din ele nu cumva sunt versiuni alfa, adica unele brute, abia iesite din compliator, cu posibile erori de functionare.


TriX, descoperirea este a CH si a multor altora inainte de el, eu doar mi-am expus impresiile in urma unei citiri a Pentateuhului dintr-o perspectiva mai putin bisericeasca. Nici n-am mai zabovit sa consult concluziile altora, am mers direct la textele incriminate de ascunderea altor prescriptii legale si am remarcat, la fel ca CH, ca sunt prezentate intr-un mod solemn si ca sunt sapate in piatra. Acum am vazut si eu ca despre Decalogul Ritualic putem consulta foarte bine comentariile deja existente ale unor experti.

Ianis, in spiritul opensource, care se pare ca se aplica si textelor sacre, clasificarea ta se potriveste realitatii de la fata locului.


--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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study_nature
post May 30 2010, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (polihronu @ May 30 2010, 12:31 PM) *
Maybe this helps.

LE Sau asta biggrin.gif

ELE Nu ratati acest rezumat, linkat in articolul indicat de pe wiki.


Linkul lui Poli de la LE spune o poveste pentru oameni mari intr-o forma pentru copii:

QUOTE
As Beth and her family were walking through Westwood one lovely summer afternoon, they heard a man on the street corner talking about Hell. He said that it was very hot there and that you would have to go there for the rest of eternity if you didn't obey the ten commandments.
This bothered Beth because she was uncomfortable enough in the summer and probably couldn't stand living somewhere that was on fire. The problem was, she couldn't obey the ten commandments because she didn't know what they were. When they stopped at Papa Zitti's for some pizza, Beth asked her mother to tell her about the ten commandments.
"Eat your dinner, Dear One," her mother said, "and I'll tell you the story of God's ten commandments."
And this is the story she told:

Exodul 34:1-27 este prezentat aici adaptat si reformulat intr-o forma laica, la zi, si amuzanta, pe care o puteti citi acolo unde v-a zis Poli. Urmeaza apoi asta (eu sunt cel care a aplicat stilul "bold" pentru a evidentia anumite idei importante):
QUOTE
"That doesn't seem so bad," said Beth, "but there's a lot of different celebrations in there. Like the one of flat bread and the one of weeks and the one of wheat. I guess we do those, but I've never even heard about the others."
"That's true, Dear One," said Beth's mother.
"And I do chores on Saturdays but take Sundays off. I guess that Dad and Bobbie go to church about three times a year, so that's okay, and we never boil any goats, but we don't give fruit from our fruit trees to God and I don't even know what leaven is or why I should be offering blood to God. It's all very upsetting, Mother. Does this mean that we are going to hell?"
"Oh, I don't think so," said Beth's mother. "It is true that God promised to take care of people only if they obeyed him and punish them if they don't, but he also told Moses that he'd write the laws on tablets for him and Moses ended up having to do it himself."
Beth thought about this for a moment. Then she smiled and hugged her mother. All her questions had been answered.

Este geniala observatia!
In primul verset al capitolului, in NIV, ni se spune:
QUOTE
1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

Dar, cand colo, peste douazeci si ceva de versete se intampla ca:
QUOTE
27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Cornilescu, pe de alta parte, neputand indura disonanta cognitiva asurzitoare provocata de textul ebraic, a redat altfel versetele 27 si 28, adaugand din convingere proprie cuvantul "Domnul" acolo unde in ebraica nu exista decat "el a scris", din curgerea textul fiind evident cine este de fapt acest "el":
QUOTE
27Domnul a zis lui Moise: ,,Scrie-ţi cuvintele acestea, căci pe temeiul acestor cuvinte închei legămînt cu tine şi cu Israel!``

28Moise a stat acolo cu Domnul patruzeci de zile şi patruzeci de nopţi. N'a mîncat deloc pîne, şi n'a băut deloc apă. Şi Domnul a scris pe table cuvintele legămîntului, cele zece porunci.

Versetul 28 este redat corect pana si in KJV, Moise fiind cel care apare acolo drept sculptorul in piatra tablelor.

Stiu ca mai este o problema aici, un aspect care ar putea face ca discrepanta dintre versetul 1 si versetele 27-28 sa nu mai fie atat de mare. Problema este detaliata in materialul de pe site-ul bbc spre care ne conduce articolul din wikipedia de care ne zicea tot Poli:
QUOTE
There is a Break Between the Ritual Decalogue and the Phrase 'Ten Commandments'

The main - indeed, only - cause to suggest that the Ritual Decalogue is the Ten Commandments is that it seems to be described as such in the text. If it could be shown that the phrase 'Ten Commandments' is not referring to the Ritual Decalogue, then the case would be closed.

In the original Hebrew text, there is a subject break at the end of the Ritual Decalogue, just before Moses spends 40 days and 40 nights on the mountain and, crucially, before he is told to carve the Ten Commandments. Thus, a line of argument dating back at least as far as the 13th Century Jewish scholar Nahmanides suggests that in the intervening period, God gave many other instructions to Moses, including the Ethical Decalogue. The confusion over whether Moses or God carves the stone tablets has frequently been used to support this5. God, it is claimed, wrote the Ethical Decalogue, but told Moses to write the Ritual Decalogue.

There are some problems with this idea; firstly, the Biblical text makes no mention of what, if anything, God said to write other than the Ritual Decalogue, so it is based on an assumption. The text does also seem to flow across the subject break; the Ritual Decalogue begins by describing itself as a covenant, and immediately afterwards Moses is instructed to carve 'this covenant' in stone as the Ten Commandments. The argument over who carved the second set of tablets is also problematic, as both Moses and God are explictly said to have done so6.

Nevertheless, this continues to have some support. Richard E. Friedman has even suggested that Moses was instructed to write the Ritual Decalogue on the back of the tablets containing the Ethical Decalogue.


Ziceti si voi, cum sa procedam acuma?
Sa luam textul biblic in forma lui canonica, asa cum a ajuns pana la noi, si sa-l interpretam in mod literalist, asa cum zic conservatorii sinceri ("If it's in the Bible, I believe it!"), ceea ce ar duce la o contradictie fatzisha, sau sa fim mai liberali, permitand existenta acelei pauze exact in punctul crucial, salvand astfel mai mult din prestigiul Scripturii, care oricum iese shifonat, indiferent cum am da-o si orice abordare a studiul capitolului 34 din Exodul am adopta.

Billy, greiere si ceilalti care sunteti conservatori, fiti curajosi si acceptati provocarile pe care vi le adresam prin ultimele idei scrise la topicul acesta! wink.gif biggrin.gif


--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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icsicsics
post May 30 2010, 12:39 PM
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QUOTE (study_nature @ May 30 2010, 03:13 PM) *


study, de ce zici ca iese sifonat prestigiul scripturii? de teologia noului legamant din evrei 8 ce parere ai?


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Teologul
post May 31 2010, 06:45 PM
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Trebuie sa recunosc ca nu ma asteptam ca lucrurile sa ia o asemenea intorsatura. Dupa ce am fost criticat in fel si chip pentru ideile si noutatile cu care am venit in scopul unei mai bune intelegeri a decalogului din Exodul 20, acum se descopera ceva uimitor: o varianta total diferita de reguli, in mare parte tinand de aspectul ceremonial.
Faptul acesta imi permite sa lansez o alta teorie care sustine ca, in decursul vremurilor, formula “Cele zece porunci” nu a fost decat o interfata de prezentare a Legii morale in ansamblul ei. Mai precis, era vorba doar de o “vitrina” in care erau expuse produsele cele mai valoroase, extrase din randul celor cateva sute sau mii existente in depozitele si magaziile firmei.
Aceasta face ca, intamplator, Exodul 34 sa surprinda un moment in care, din neglijenta, ajung in vitrina cu totul alte produse decat cele originale (aflate in proces de restaurare/curatare), de o valoare incomparabil mai mica si cu termene de valabilitate mult mai scurte. Acest moment de “scapare” a fost imortalizat de un reporter-cronicar, ceea ce a redus cu mult prestigiul firmei si a facut clientii sa ocoleasca magazinul.
Urmeaza o alta incercare de a implementa vechile norme (Deuteronomul 5), cu readucerea in vitrina a produselor originale, curatate de praf si cosmetizate. Pentru cel care nu a remarcat momentul “absentei”, totul pare a fi ok, dar cei care au apucat sa vada produsele de calitate slaba (pseudo-poruncile) nu vor mai cumpara niciodata ceva de acolo.
Acum poate ar fi cazul sa precizam ca, in iudaism, nu exista nici o diferenta de autoritate intre Decalogul de pe table si restul poruncilor mozaice. Aceasta falsa distinctie se face doar in adventism, care ii arata cu degetul si rade de cei de la care a preluat de fapt intregul material. Daca traditia iudaica si Talmudul nu fac deosebire intre decalog si restul legii lui Moise, punandu-le pe picior de egalitate, eu zic ca nimeni nu are dreptul sa le separe. Mai ales ca deja a aparut teoria, pe care o banuiam, cum ca Moise insusi ar fi sapat poruncile pe table. Evident, in conditiile in care nu a luat cu el pe munte nici un martor ocular.


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"Nu recunosc alt semn al superioritatii umane decat bunatatea" (Ludwig van Beethoven)
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study_nature
post Jun 11 2010, 04:10 PM
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Pentru cei care n-ar merge atat de departe cum am mers noi in ultimele schimburi de idei de la acest topic am ceva care le-ar putea placea: cartea Keeping the Ten Commandments de J.I. Packer, un teolog evangelic mai cumintel.
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--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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sisif
post Jun 25 2010, 07:06 PM
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sa nu-ti faci chip cioplit...

Jesus statue struck by lightning


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caldicel
post Jun 25 2010, 09:16 PM
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Teologule, vezi ca si nepotelul meu de 6 ani care e foarte destept are ca hobby adaugarea de noi informatii istorice pe wiki.
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skeptic
post Jun 26 2010, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (sisif @ Jun 25 2010, 10:06 PM) *
sa nu-ti faci chip cioplit...

Jesus statue struck by lightning


Sau poate ca e fiara care pogoara foc din cer si cauta sa ii insele chiar si pe cei alesi. (Pomenisem si eu despre eveniment la vremea lui aici.)


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study_nature
post Aug 22 2010, 10:33 PM
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Referitor la validitatea scolarestii distinctii adventiste intre legea morala eterna si legea ceremoniala temporara, cineva face niste observatii si citeaza din niste versete biblice care ar trebui luate in calcul.


--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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polihronu
post Aug 23 2010, 12:24 AM
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Mai mult:

a) Exod 24:4-8 (coroborat de Evrei 9:19-20) ne spune ca legamintul mozaic a fost facut pe baza unei "carti" scrise de Moise, care continea "toate cuvintele Domnului" (adica Exodul 20-23) si care nu avea cum sa fie "cartea" scrisa de Moise 40 de ani mai tirziu (Deuteronomul) si asezata linga chivot.

b) Expresia din Exodul 24:12 ce numeste continutul "tablelor de piatra" este extrem de generoasa - "legea si poruncile" -, parind a se referi, din nou, la Exod 20-23 (poate nu degeaba Exodul 32:15 mentioneaza ca prima pereche de "table" au fost scrise fata-verso). 2 Regi 17:34 spune chiar ca Dumnezeu "a scris" si "invataturile", si "rinduielile", si "legea si poruncile".

c) Exodul 34:27-28 este extrem de ambiguu - in original, Moise pare sa fi scris pe a doua pereche de "table", iar "cuvintele acestea" din v. 27 sint ceva mai multe decit "cele zece cuvinte ale legamintului" din v. 28.

d) In orice caz, "tablele" nu sint de gasit. Nu avem acces la lege (inclusiv "cele zece") decit prin intermediul cartii - intocmai dupa cum "cartea" Deuteronomului (cea de linga chivot) continea si "cele zece" (vezi Deuteronomul 5).

LE Sa nu mai vorbim ca traditia iudaica dezvoltase pina in secolul intii ideea darii legii prin intermediul ingerilor (cf. FA 7:53; Galateni 3:19; Evrei 2:2). Poate ca tocmai acesta este contextul cultului ingerilor pomenit de Pavel in Coloseni 2:18. De unde - poate - si insistentul refuz al inchinarii de catre ingerul revelatiei din Apocalipsa.


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"Onestitatea intelectuala este o conditie necesara a fericirii" - Paine
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icsicsics
post Aug 23 2010, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE (polihronu @ Aug 23 2010, 03:24 AM) *
cool.gif Expresia din Exodul 24:12 ce numeste continutul "tablelor de piatra" este extrem de generoasa - "legea si poruncile" -, parind a se referi, din nou, la Exod 20-23 (poate nu degeaba Exodul 32:15 mentioneaza ca prima pereche de "table" au fost scrise fata-verso). 2 Regi 17:34 spune chiar ca Dumnezeu "a scris" si "invataturile", si "rinduielile", si "legea si poruncile".


smile.gif

Domnul i-a zis lui Moise: „Suie-te la Mine pe munte şi aşteaptă acolo; îţi voi da nişte table de piatră cu Legea şi poruncile pe care le-am scris pentru ca ei să poată fi învăţaţi.“

1. ei fiind cine?

2. ce anume sa fie invatati?

3. care-i rostul invatarii/invataturii?



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sisif
post Oct 29 2010, 01:19 AM
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GOD TEXTS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

1. no1 b4 me. srsly.
2. dnt wrshp pix/idols
3. no omg's
4. no wrk on w/end (sat 4 now; sun l8r)
5. pos ok - ur m&d r cool
6. dnt kill ppl
7. :-X only w/ m8
8. dnt steal
9. dnt lie re: bf
10. dnt ogle ur bf's m8. or ox. or dnkey. myob.


M, pls rite on tabs & giv 2 ppl.
ttyl, JHWH.


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Ianis
post Jun 21 2013, 01:26 PM
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Richard Dawkins Destroys The 10 Commandments smile.gif



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Avram Stanescu
post Jun 23 2013, 05:05 AM
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Daca vrei sa intri in viata ceata, pazeste poruncile.


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“By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.”
“I had no need of that hypothesis.”
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