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Adultii cred si spun lucruri traznite: flat-earthism et al., Topic mutat de pe forumul O2
study_nature
post Dec 29 2010, 01:08 PM
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by study_nature Wed, 25 Aug, 2010 3:29

Este incredibil ce-am putut sa citesc in The History of Science and Religion in the Western Tradition, carte despre care v-am scris cate ceva ieri la topicul dedicat.

Am observat in seara asta ca respectiva lucrare de referinta are un scurt capitol pe tema "Pamantul este plat, cum puteti voi sa credeti ca e 'rotund'?!?" Trec peste nesfarsita perioada din istorie cand saracii omenashi nu prea aveau mijloacele necesare determinarii veridicitatii unei ipoteze, si ma duc direct la sectiunea "The Rebirth of Flat-Earthism", unde am parte de niste colosale suprize neplacute - aici deschid o lunga paranteza - cam atat de mari cat ar masura de la un 'cap' la altul Terra daca ar fi plata, btw, stiti voi cum e cu elefantii si cu testoasa, nu? Daca ar fi sa updatam putin mitul asta, ar fi plauzibil ca saracele vietuitoare sa-si fi primit neplacutul rol ca urmare a unei pedepse din partea zeilor pe motiv ca s-ar fi asezat cu dosul pe rotocolul terestru de ei plamadit cu migala. Sau, daca ar fi sa dam glas aici problemei cosmologice a regresiei infinite, sunt testoase pana jos! Pentru ca tot am ajuns la capitolul elefanti, testoase, discuri (si trolli!), Terry Pratchett, care a primit nu demult titlul de 'Sir', si care se pare ca este printre cei mai bine vanduti autori britanici, are o foarte savuroasa serie de carti numita 'Discworld', care s-a facut remarcata si pentru ca permite trasarea multor bine-izbutite paralele satirice la chestiunile culturale, politice, stiintifice si religioase contemporane.

Dar sa lasam ilaritatile si sa purcedem la drum printr-o trecere in revista a catorva detalii despre aceasta credinta neobisnuita si prin povestirea dezbaterii care i-a readus pe flat-eartheri in atentia publicului britanic, caci acolo, dupa cum vom vedea, s-a desfasurat confruntarea cu pricina:

QUOTE
Zetetic [= flat-earth] astronomy teaches that the known world is a vast circular plane, with the north pole at its center and an impassible wall of ice marking the “southern limit.” The sun, moon, and planets circle above the earth in the region of the equator, roughly halfway between the north pole and the southern limit. Atmospheric refraction and perspective explain the rising and setting of celestial bodies and ships disappearing over the horizon. The vault of heaven encloses the known world.
The zetetics gained enormous publicity when the famous naturalist Alfred Russel Wallace (1823–1913) foolishly accepted a challenge from zetetic John Hampden (c. 1820–91) to “prove the rotundity and revolution of the world from Scripture, from reason, or from fact.” The two men wagered 500 on the outcome of an experiment performed at the Old Bedford Canal on March 5, 1870. Wallace proved the curvature of the canal’s surface to the satisfaction of the stakeholder, who handed over the cash. Hampden refused to accept the result, and he spent the next two decades vilifying Wallace in letters to the editor, pamphlets, and short-lived flat-earth periodicals such as the Truth-Seeker’s Oracle and Scriptural Science Review (1876) and Earth: Scripturally, Rationally, and Practically Described (1886–8). Various legal actions kept the fiasco in the public eye, and Hampden became a zetetic hero.


Mandibula mea a realizat o subita miscare de basculare in momentul in care, citind continuarea paragrafului anterior, am aflat cum au reusit inaintasii nostri nu doar sa-si dea in petic drept complici la ridicarea acestei miscari, ci se poate spune despre ei ca au fost chiar in avangarda, ca niste corifei priceputi - intocmai dupa cum ne place sa ne imaginam ca erau pionierii AZS:

QUOTE
By the early 1890s, zetetic astronomy had scattered supporters among religious conservatives, especially Adventists, who interpreted the Bible literally. Adventists affiliated with the Conditional Immortality Mission in England led in the founding of the Universal Zetetic Society (UZS) in 1892. Soon afterward, the UZS journal, Earth—Not a Globe!—Review (1893–7), appeared under the editorship of Albert Smith (fl. 1884–1918), a former Seventh-day Adventist elder. Within a year, the UZS had members and agents all over the English-speaking world. After the Earth Review folded, the UZS continued under the leadership of Lady Elizabeth Anne Mould Blount (1850–after 1923), who founded Earth, another short-lived zetetic journal. Lady Blount lectured frequently, sometimes to audiences of a thousand or more. The London-based UZS was apparently a casualty of World War I. By then, flat-earthism was well rooted in America.


Dar sa trecem acum pe meleagurile Lumii Noi, unde un coreligionar de-ai nostri iese in evidenta prin punerea la buna folosinta a abilitatilor apologetice dobandite de orice bun practicant al credintei adevarate:

QUOTE
A New York Zetetic Society had been organized in 1873, but it quickly faded from view. Serious flat-earth agitation in the United States began when William Carpenter (c. 1830–96), a well-known British flat- earther, immigrated to Baltimore in 1880. His pamphlet, One Hundred Proofs That the Earth Is Not a Globe (1885), went through more than a dozen editions, and he lectured widely in the northeast. Alexander Gleason (1827– 1909), a Seventh-day Adventist from Buffalo, New York, was another well-known nineteenth-century American flat-earther. Gleason published two editions of Is the Bible from Heaven? Is the Earth a Globe? (1890 and 1893).


Vi se pare deja prea mult? Din pacate povestea nu se incheie aici. Flat-eartheri au fost destui si in secolul al douazecilea, cel in care (mai) toti dintre noi s-au nascut:

QUOTE
Early in the twentieth century, Boston became the intellectual center of American flat-earthism, with its own branch of the UZS. Bostonians John G.Abizaid (fl. 1912–35), Charles W.Morse (fl. 1913), and Henry J. Goudey (fl. 1931) published works defending the zetetic view. American flat-earthism reached its pinnacle in Zion, Illinois, in the 1920s under Wilbur Glenn Voliva. As general overseer of the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church of Zion, Voliva made flat-earthism a doctrine of the Church, and Zion’s parochial schools taught that the earth is flat. Voliva lost power in Zion in the mid-1930s, and flat-earthism soon faded from view.


E trist sa amintesc ca si dupa cel de-al doilea razboi mondial a existat o reinviorare a curentului despre care vorbim noi aici, dar va las pe voi sa mai cititi scurta relatare despre asta in capitolul 66 al cartii sus mentionate, la pagina 413.

Pentru o oarecare restabilire a echilibrului pierdut, as mai cita doar incheierea capitolului 65, Geocentricity, si el on-topic fara urma de indoiala:

QUOTE
All modern American geocentrists seem to be young-earth creationists who hold that the Bible compels them to reject Copernicus along with Charles Darwin (1809–82). The variant of the Tychonian system advocated by the Association for Biblical Astronomy can predict exactly the same relative motions between celestial bodies as the conventional system. This fact makes it far more coherent than Flood geology, which often is helpless to account for geologic data. Nevertheless, most creationists seem embarrassed by geocentricity. With a few exceptions, leading young-earth creationists publicly ignore (and often privately disparage) the geocentrists, who remain a small minority within the movement.


Nu pot decat sa ma amuz la remarca rautacioasa referitoare la ceea ce se numeste 'geologia potopului'. Bine macar ca majoritatea creationistilor se simt rusinati de colegii lor geocentristi, si ca numarul acestora din urma ramane mic.

PS: Tot din dorinta de rigurozitate, la care se adauga induiosharea mea fata de vremurile in care eram si eu mic YEC idealist, este necesar sa mentionez ca in capitolul 65, pe care nu mi-am propus sa-l abordez aici, magareatza cade pe capul luteranilor, pentru care se pare ca Luther a fost un model nefast de urmat in aceasta chestiune.

Sa ganditi bine! smile.gif


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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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study_nature
post Dec 29 2010, 01:10 PM
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by ianis Wed, 25 Aug, 2010 11:15

study,
e clar ca la citirea unor anumite carti (capitole) e bine sa ai mandibula ferm ancorata laugh.gif
Din nefericire exista si in sec XIX oameni care sa creada in flat earth. Eu am intalnit prin biserici. Foarte zelosi.

Despre aventurile azs am citit si eu in cartea Saving Darwin a lui Karl Giberson: cum s-a nascut YEC pornind de la o viziune Egw


--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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study_nature
post Dec 29 2010, 01:11 PM
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by study_nature Fri, 3 Sep, 2010 12:18

Stiati ca exista oameni pentru care o alta amenintare la adresa marturiilor adevarate ale Bibliei este teoria relativitatii? Nu-i nicio gluma, vedeti articolul acesta de pe Conservapedia si replica lui Ervin Taylor de pe Adventist Today.

Mare este gradina Domnului! (Dar oricat de mare ar fi, teoria relativitatii tot nu este aplicabila, zic unii! tongue.gif)


--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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study_nature
post Dec 29 2010, 01:12 PM
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by study_nature Sun, 5 Sep, 2010 13:00

Via BioLogos am dat peste o reusita paralela intre vechea situatie determinata de dominantza flat-earth-ismului si mai noul context prilejuit de teoriile creationiste. Textul a fost preluat din comentariul cuiva care se intituleaza Timaeus, comentariu postat pe site-ul pro-ID numit Uncommon Descent. Contextul propice pogorarii inspiratiei muzelor asupra acestui Timaeus modern a fost controversa referitoare la concedierea/demisia renumitului scholar Bruce K. Waltke din postul de Professor of Old Testament la Reformed Theological Seminary.


--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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kla
post Dec 29 2010, 01:25 PM
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Evident ca sunt si astfel de opinii. La firul ierbii am auzit cu urechile mele o astfel de argumentatie din partea unor persoane afiliate AZS:
Citat aproximativ.
"Cum frate sa fie pamantul rotund si sa se miste. Noi n-am simti chiar nimic asa? Ai vazut cand s-a miscat oleaca luna trecuta (Nota: Tocmai fusese un cutremur devastator in California si pagube imense in LA si SF). Ce dezastru..."
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skeptic
post Jan 8 2011, 11:52 AM
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Una meseriasa de la Bill O'Reilly

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Ianis
post Jan 8 2011, 12:02 PM
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Shit happens...again and again


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Im afraid to be alive without being aware of it
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