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Despre s/Spirit, ca sa vedem de ce "spiritualitate"
study_nature
post Jun 18 2010, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE (polihronu @ Jun 18 2010, 07:14 PM) *
Hmm, evaziv - cum ar zice bnc - si insidios (asta zic io) smile.gif Tocmai la John Searle, cel cu naturalismul biologic, faci trimitere in contextul acestei discutii despre spirit? biggrin.gif

Da, tocmai la Searle! tongue.gif
Dar el e mai putin radical decat ati putea crede vazand ca este numit intemeietorul naturalismului biologic. Mie unuia, imi pare uneori ca are si cateva lucruri in comun cu gandirea adventista pe aceasta tema.

Uite cum prezinta Searle scopul naturalismului biologic:
QUOTE
I said that both dualism and materialism are trying to say something true but, because of the philosophical tradition, they end up saying something false. Which part is false and which true? Dualism says truly that consciousness is a real feature of the real world and is not eliminable or reducible to something else. But it says falsely that consciousness is not an ordinary part of the physical world we all live in but inhabits a separate metaphysical realm. Materialism says truly that the Universe consists entirely of physical particles in fields of force (or whatever the ultimately true physical theory says are the basic building blocks of the Universe) but says falsely that consciousness, as an irreducible, subjective, qualitative mental phenomenon does not exist. One way to see Biological Naturalism is as an attempt to preserve what is true in each while discarding what is false.
(...)
Given a choice between the facts as we know them – consciousness exists, it is caused by neuronal processes, it exists in the brain, and it has causal functions in the life of the organ- ism – and various philosophical theories, I will take the facts any time. Furthermore, I am confident that in the long run, the facts will prevail over the theories that will come to seem more and more obsolete.
John R Searle, Biological Naturalism, The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness, Edited by Max Velmans, Susan Schneider, Blackwell Publishing, 2007, pp. 325-334 (citatul se gaseste la paginile 333-334). Intragul tratat despre consciousness de la Blackwell este EXCELENT! Vi-l puteti descarca urmand acest link spre folderul meu dropbox.


Aici vorbeste putin dar persuasiv despre analogia creier-hardware si despre alte lucruri importante:
QUOTE
In my view the most important problem in the biological sciences today is the problem of consciousness. I believe we are now at a point where we can address this problem as a biological problem like any other. For decades research has been impeded by two mistaken views: first, that consciousness is just a special sort of computer program, a special software in the hardware of the brain; and second that consciousness was just a matter of information processing. The right sort of information processing -- or on some views any sort of information processing --- would be sufficient to guarantee consciousness. I have criticized these views at length elsewhere (Searle 1980, 1992, 1997) and do not repeat these criticisms here. But it is important to remind ourselves how profoundly anti-biological these views are. On these views brains do not really matter. We just happen to be implemented in brains, but any hardware that could carry the program or process the information would do just as well. I believe, on the contrary, that understanding the nature of consciousness crucially requires understanding how brain processes cause and realize consciousness.. Perhaps when we understand how brains do that, we can build conscious artifacts using some nonbiological materials that duplicate, and not merely simulate, the causal powers that brains have. But first we need to understand how brains do it.
John R Searle, Consciousness (pdf), Annual Review of Neuroscience, Vol. 23: 557-578 (Volume publication date March 2000), pagina 16 a pdf-ului.


Cat de separata este conshtientza de procesele care au loc in creier? Aveti idee ce ilustratie apetisanta foloseste Searle ca punct de pornire pentru cateva sugestii pe care le face pentru a ne apropia de o intelegere mai buna a mintii/spiritului/whatever?
QUOTE
Typical metaphors are that consciousness is something ‘over and above’ brain processes, that brains ‘give rise to’ consciousness and, of course, that consciousness is an ‘emergent’ property of the brain. But all of these metaphors suggest that the picture the dualist has is that consciousness is something separate from the brain. I said the property dualist thinks of consciousness as like steam rising from a pot of boiling water, but here is another picture suggested by these metaphors: we are to think of consciousness as like the frosting on the cake of the brain (and in its panpsychist version, the frosting on the whole universe). The frosting is something distinct from the cake and it is on top of (over and above it). I have argued that these are the wrong pictures. The right picture, if we are going to persist in the metaphor of the cake, is that consciousness is the state that the cake (brain) is in. Officially, the property dualist says that consciousness is a property of the brain; but if you consider uncontroversial properties of the brain, like weight, shape, colour, solidity, etc., nobody says that these ‘arise from’ or are ‘over and above’ the brain; and only in a special sense can some of them be described as ‘emergent’ (cf. Searle, 1992, pp. 111–12), and certainly not as ‘emergent from’ the brain. The official claim is that consciousness is a property, not a thing, object or substance. But that claim is inconsistent with the conception of consciousness as something that is ‘over and above’, that the brain ‘gives rise to’, etc.; this conception requires that consciousness be a separate thing, object, or non-property type of entity. The dualism in property dualism forces them to postulate a separate entity. Ironically, the very dualism of the property dualist picture makes it impossible to state the theory without implying a version of substance dualism.
John R. Searle, Why I Am Not a Property Dualist (pdf), Journal of Consciousness Studies, 9, No. 12, 2002, pp. 57–64 (citatul se gaseste la paginile 63-64).


Poli, multam de provocare, nu prea citisem din Searle mare branza inainte, dar acum am descoperit ca-mi place chiar mai mult decat sugeram in postarea anterioara, in care-l dadeam drept exemplu! biggrin.gif


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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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Teologul
post Jun 20 2010, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE (polihronu @ Jun 17 2010, 05:39 PM) *
Ia in calcul urmatoarea analogie: in Matei 15:17-20 Isus le explica discipolilor sai ce a vrut sa spuna prin 'parabola' din versetul 11 ("nu ce intra in gura spurca pe om; ce iese din gura, aceea spurca pe om"). In explicatia lui, el recurge la fiziologia vremii - "ce iese din gura vine din inima" (v.18). Acum, ca pricepem functiile creierului, stim ca inima nu are (mai) nimic de a face cu "gindurile rele, uciderile, preacurviile, curviile, furtisagurile, marturiile mincinoase, hulele" (v.19). Dar, in ciuda perimarii fundalului conceptual, sensul teologic al cuvintelor lui Isus ramine: "termina cu ipocrizia asta a puritatii exterioare, si ingrijoreaza-te cu privire la ce-ti trece prin cap si apuca sa se materializeze intr-o forma sau alta, ranind".


Frate, aici te contrazic si iti voi prezenta argumente. Afirmatia lui Isus "cuvintele vin din inima" are un alt inteles decat cel aparent. Unii cercetatori biblici au ajuns la concluzia ca scriitorii foloseau doi termeni consacrati legati de psihicul uman: inima si rarunchii. Corespondenta gasita a fost urmatoarea:
- inima reprezinta subconstientul, localizat de anatomisti in talamus, care pe sectiune are forma de inima;
- rarunchii (rinichii) reprezinta constientul, localizat pe scoarta cerebrala, care pe sectiune are forma rinichiului.
Vedeti, asadar, cata informatie ascunsa exista in Biblie, pe langa care trecem fara s-o observam, si care ne deschide perspective nebanuite. In privinta naturii spiritelor voi da raspuns separat.

PS. Ar fi de dorit totusi sa incerci sa traduci pasajele respective pe care le postezi aici.


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"Nu recunosc alt semn al superioritatii umane decat bunatatea" (Ludwig van Beethoven)
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polihronu
post Jun 20 2010, 09:31 AM
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Draga teo, "unii cercetatori biblici" nu tine. In plus, daca "ce iese din gura vine..." de fapt din subconstient, stam prost, extrem de prost. In plusul plusului, nu anatomistii "localizeaza" subconstientul pe vreundeva. Eventual, niste anatemisti.

Citeste, rogu-te, acest articol (dintr-o revista de nefrologie) si mai discutam.


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Teologul
post Jun 20 2010, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (peret @ Jun 18 2010, 06:26 PM) *
Cine crede in posedare este provocat oarecum sa accepte ideea de duh/spirit ca fiind o fiinta imateriala cu constiinta proprie ce poate pune stapanire pe om si poate prelua controlul asupra acestuia.(biblia este plina de exemple in acest sens).Intrebarea mea este urmatoarea:Ce este fiinta umana? Trup+duh+suflare de viata= suflet viu? sau Trup+ suflare de viata=suflet viu?Cand Dumnezeu a creat aceasta masinarie sensibila numita om i-a atasat si un hard (probabil piesa esentiala a masinariei) capabil nu doar sa stocheze informatii ci sa isi dezvolte in timp si o personalitate proprie.A fost nevoie de curent divin pentru ca acest ,,calculator,, uman sa poata functiona.Recunosc si pe mine ma macina intrebarea urmatoare:Hardul este doar o componenta fizica, materiala sau are si un corespondent geaman in lumea imateriala?Aici asi vrea sa vad si care este parerea voastra.


Dragii mei, problema nu e asa de complicata, dar lipsa suportului biblic e cea care ne da batai de cap. Nu putem lamuri problema spiritului si a constiintei doar pe baza Bibliei, de aceea am apelat la alte surse. Totusi, avand in vedere ca pe acest forum nu se accepta autoritatea vreunui scriitor necunoscut, nu ma voi mai obosi sa imi justific afirmatiile. Va prezint doar teoria, care are destule motive sa se impuna prin ea insasi.
Am mai spus-o: comparatia cu computerul nu e deloc potrivita pentru descrierea alcatuirii fiintei omenesti, intrucat se compara un obiect cu o vietate. Totusi, este folosita des in mediul azs, fiindca pare sa sustina doctrina semi-ateista a inconstientei si inexistentei omului in moarte.
Ar trebui sa pornim de la observatia plina de bun-simt a lui Peret ca exista spirite nemateriale, care se pot numi ingeri sau demoni (dupa caz). Cel care crede asta va trebui sa accepte automat faptul ca viata in afara corpului material este perfect posibila. Experientele persoanelor care au trecut prin moarte clinica reprezinta argumente puternice in acest sens, intrucat, desi activitatea cerebrala pe EEG era nula, omul si-a amintit cu lux de amanunte ceea ce s-a intamplat cu el.
Parerea mea si a altor autori (pe care nu-i citez, ca oricum sursa nu e luata in considerare) este ca omul poate fi definit ca un sistem energo-informational extrem de complex, alcatuit din corp somatic, suflet (psihic) si spirit (scanteia divina). Fara nucleul spiritual, nici o fiinta nu poate avea viata, desi poate mima functiile biologice sau intelectuale. Se zice despre animale ca au suflete individuale, dar nu au decat un spirit colectiv, care le calauzeste ca turma sau specie.
Daca ar fi sa luam cazul ingerilor, ei nu au corp material, ci doar un nucleu spiritual si suflet, care in mod paradoxal, exista in lipsa trupului. Conform unor autori din literatura oculta, ei ar avea o forma sferica si marimea unei portocale. Circula cu viteze super-luminice si se pot uneori materializa dupa dorinta in scopul indeplinirii unor misiuni. Diferenta intre ingerii buni si cei rai ar fi data de nivelul vibratoriu al undelor din care sunt constituiti, respectiv frecventa, care le da si culoarea (alb-stralucitor pt ingerii buni si rosu-maron-cenusiu pt cei decazuti). Nu se incarneaza niciodata ca noi, urmand un drum diferit de evolutie (asa-zisa cale lenta si usoara).
In ce priveste celelalte spirite libere (care au si suflet atasat), ele ar apartine oamenilor decedati, aflati in perioada dintre 2 vieti. Numai o mica parte salasluiesc in apropierea pamantului, restul aflandu-se ori mult mai sus (cei buni), ori mult mai jos, sub nivelul suprafetei solului (cei rai). Pot lua in stapanire oameni cu psihicul bolnav. Sufletele foarte ticaloase se zice ca ar ajunge in zona mantalei interne sau a nucleului lichid din apropierea centrului pamantului, unde se inregistreaza temperaturi de circa 6000 de grade si unde se presupune ca ar fi si iadul - partea cea mai de jos a purgatoriului. Acolo va fi aruncat si Satan impreuna cu ingerii lui, dar desigur pe o perioada limitata.
Spirit in stare pura se pare ca nu exista in univers; in permanenta el are atasat un suflet mai mult sau mai putin dezvoltat, iar atunci cand se incarneaza, si corp somatic. Doar in momentul incheierii definitive a evolutiei sale, a atingerii perfectiunii, inaintea intrarii in Nirvana, el se dezbraca de toate celelalte vehicule, unindu-se cu divinitatea si pierzandu-si individualitatea pentru totdeauna (nu va mai sti niciodata ca a existat). In acest context, viata vesnica ar fi identica cu moartea vesnica, asa incat Isus si Buddha au predicat despre aceeasi notiune.


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polihronu
post Jun 20 2010, 09:46 PM
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Draga Teo, cred ca ai dreptate cind spui ca antropologia adventista e "semi-ateista". E undeva o lipsa de consecventa in a nega existenta sufletului uman (ca entitate trans-fizica) si a sustine in acelasi timp existenta unei intregi lumi "spirituale" - cu ingeri, demoni, Duh Sfint (ba chiar Dumnezeu insusi e spirit, nu?). Dar ignori fericit un lucru: ca sistemul devine coerent nu doar prin afirmarea lipsita de vreo dovada a registrului spiritual al fiintei, ci si (cu mult mai multa eficienta) prin negarea lui.

Sursele tale nu sufera din cauza anonimitatii, ci pentru mult mai banalul motiv ca sint dubioase. O prostie nu devine legitima pentru ca ai de unde s-o citezi.

Vreau si eu o sursa credibila pentru chestia asta cu memoria manevrelor de resuscitare la oameni cu EEG flat.

LE Trebuie sa recunosc: geniala intuitia ta cum ca viata vesnica e totuna cu moartea vesnica smile.gif

ELE Inainte de a ajunge la concluziile tale, draga Teo, ai citit si lucruri ca acestea? De ce doar unii (o minoritate statistica) dintre cei care supravietuiesc unui stop cardiac au NDEs? De ce sint concludente NDEs cind ceea ce vrem sa confirmam e de fapt viata dupa moarte? Ce stii despre EEG si diferitele situatii clinice in care e izoelectric?


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Teologul
post Jun 21 2010, 06:18 PM
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Am citit cartile pastorului Moody, la care ai facut referire, precum si pe cele ale medicului Aurel Popescu-Balcesti (una din ele se numeste "Spirit si suflet - reincarnarea"). Desigur ca NDE nu sunt acelasi lucru cu trairile de dupa moarte, de aceea nici nu le-am considerat dovezi, ci doar argumente in sprijinul teoriei prezentate. Din cate stiu, linia izoelectrica atat pe EKG cat si pe EEG indica lipsa totala de functionare a organelor respective; in stari patologice sau modificate (somn, transa etc.) ele isi schimba doar traseul, emitand un alt tip de unda.
Si, ca sa raspund complet la intrebarea lui Peret, ecuatia corecta ar fi urmatoarea: spirit + suflet + trup = om si nu vreo alta relatie intre cele 3 componente din partea stanga, care ar fi independente una de alta. Cu toate acestea, ele se pot influenta reciproc, interventia asupra uneia din ele ducand la modificari asupra celorlalte doua (de pilda in chirurgia psihiatrica, sectionarea unor trasee nervoase aberante poate imbunatati starea sufleteasca a pacientului).
Ar mai fi problema faptului ca doar o minoritate din cei care au trait NDE isi amintesc si pot relata experientele traite. Cred ca aici se aplica aceeasi regula ca si in cazul viselor: ca in momentul trezirii, imaginile se sterg din memorie in cele mai multe cazuri si nu se poate stabili daca au vazut sau nu ceva dincolo.


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polihronu
post Jun 21 2010, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (Teologul @ Jun 21 2010, 09:18 PM) *
Din cate stiu, linia izoelectrica atat pe EKG cat si pe EEG indica lipsa totala de functionare a organelor respective; in stari patologice sau modificate (somn, transa etc.) ele isi schimba doar traseul, emitand un alt tip de unda.

Cred ca deja avem o problema aici. EEG-ul e izoelectric si in stari de sedare profunda (anestezie). Inca nu am auzit pe nimeni asociind NDEs cu anestezia (chit ca, precum in cazul uzului unor anumite halucinogene, experientele sint simliare).

QUOTE
Cred ca aici se aplica aceeasi regula ca si in cazul viselor: ca in momentul trezirii, imaginile se sterg din memorie in cele mai multe cazuri si nu se poate stabili daca au vazut sau nu ceva dincolo.

Sa inteleg ca si visurile sint de fapt semne ale activitatii "spiritului"? Si de ce are nevoie spiritul de memoria fiziologica?


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study_nature
post Jun 21 2010, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (Teologul @ Jun 21 2010, 09:18 PM) *
Din cate stiu, linia izoelectrica atat pe EKG cat si pe EEG indica lipsa totala de functionare a organelor respective; in stari patologice sau modificate (somn, transa etc.) ele isi schimba doar traseul, emitand un alt tip de unda.

Poli isi dovedeste din nou polivalentza! smile.gif

Pentru cei care isi doresc ceva mai mult despre utilizarea inregistrarilor EEG ca dovada a mortii cerebrale:
QUOTE
Electrocerebral Inactivity

EEGs are performed occasionally to provide supportive evidence of brain death. Although brain death is defined by clinical criteria, some situations preclude complete or definitive examination findings (such as severe open head or eye trauma). In such situations, a confirmatory test is often helpful. Cerebral angiography demonstrating no blood flow is the most sensitive and specific confirmatory test, but it also is time and labor intensive and may be refused by the family as it is highly invasive. An EEG may be a reasonable alternative, but it needs to be performed according to strict criteria for clinical as well as medical-legal determinations.

Electrocerebral inactivity (ECI), or electrocerebral silence (ECS), is defined as no cerebral activity over 2 µV using a montage that uses electrode pairs at least 10 cm apart with interelectrode impedances <10,000 ohms and >100 ohms.

According to guidelines of the American Clinical Neurophysiology Society, the following are minimum technical standards for EEG recording in suspected brain death:15

A minimum of 8 scalp electrodes
Impedances between 100 and 10,000 ohms
Integrity of entire recording system tested by touching each electrode individually to obtain appropriately located artifact potential
Interelectrode distances of at least 10 cm
Sensitivity of at least 2 µV for 30 minutes of the recording, with appropriate calibrations documented
High-frequency filter (HFF) not set below 30 Hz and low-frequency filter (LFF) not set above 1 Hz
Additional monitoring techniques used as necessary to eliminate or prove waveforms are artifactual
No EEG reactivity to strong and thorough tactile, auditory, or visual stimulation
Recording performed by a qualified technologist working under the direction of a qualified electroencephalographer
If ECI in doubt, EEG repeated after an interval (suggested 6 h)

Sursa: emedicine.medscape


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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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study_nature
post Jun 21 2010, 08:58 PM
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Am regasit o carte de capatai in ale EEG-ului, Electroencephalography Basic Principles, Clinical Applications, and Related Fields (5th Edition) avandu-i ca editori pe Ernst Niedermeyer si Fernando Lopes da Silva (cine o vrea poate sa mi-o ceara). Citez extensiv de la sectiunea despre moartea cerebrala pentru ca are legatura si cu contextul apropiat al schimbului de replici dintre Poli si Teo, dar si cu topicul in ansamblu. Plus ca se ridica niste probleme etice interesante referitoare la donatorii de organe pentru transplant. Cei care vor sa vada multele cazuri in care linia izoelectrica pe EEG nu inseamna automat moarte cerebrala sa treaca direct la partea despre tacerea electrocerebrala.

QUOTE
Brain Death
Definition
The entire problem of cerebral death is a by-product of improved medical care; it has become urgent because of the need for organs for transplantation surgery. There is nearly complete agreement that cerebral death determines the death of an individual (Saunders, 1975). Its definition is left to the medical profession and rests on an exact description of a syndrome that encompasses the clinical and EEG picture, etiological factors, and evolution (Loeb, 1975b).
Numerous terms are used for the same clinical entity: a) aperceptive, areactive, apathic, and atonic syndrome (Jouvet, 1969); b.) brain death; c) stage IV coma (Fischgold and Mathis, 1959); d) coma dépassé (Mollaret and Goulon, 1959); e) irreversible coma (Vigouroux, 1975); f) cerebral death; g) cerebral death syndrome; and h) irreversible breakdown of cerebral functions (Gerstenbrand, 1973).
In recent times, a new, twofold discussion was started about brain death. Especially in Germany the equalization of brain death and individual death has been vigorously questioned calling transplantation surgeons "vivisectionists" (quoted by Simm, 1996). On the other hand, because of the chronic shortage of organs for transplantation, donorship was expanded to anencephalic infants (Arras and Shinnar, 1988; Peabody et al., 1989; Truog and Fletcher, 1989) and to non-heart-beating patients (Koostra et al., 1995). With these discussions a considerable factual and conceptual confusion arose. This confusion can easily be cleared by sticking to the long-established principles.

(P 480)

The equation of brain death with individual death is a matter of social agreement. There is no rational argument to doubt the criterion of brain death. Anencephalic infants might be considered donors provided brain death, including the brainstem, has been properly diagnosed. From a neurological point of view, there are two problems with non-heart-beating donors. No data exist about how long the heart beat has to be arrested until the brain is irreversibly out of any function. Category 3 patients, according to Koostra et al. (1995), are ICU patients dying from severe brain trauma with no chance for recovery but who do not meet the criterion of brain death. To harvest organs, medical support is withdrawn until cardiac arrest occurs. Ethically, this procedure can hardly be accepted. With the other categories of non-heart-beating donors, neurologists and electroencephalographers might not be involved in the decision-making process.

(...)

Electrocerebral Silence (ECS)
An isoelectric EEG is confirmatory for the establishment of cerebral death (Beecher, 1968; Bennet et al., 1976; Hirsch et al., 1970; Penin and Kaufer, 1969; Schwab et al., 1963; Silverman et al., 1969; Suter, 1977). It must be emphasized, however, that ECS per se does not mean cerebral death. Isoelectric EEG recordings have been found with the complete apallic syndrome (Ingvar and Brun, 1972), with intoxication and full recovery (Bennet et al., 1976; Bird and Plum, 1968; Haider et al., 1971; Mantz et al., 1971; Mellerio, 1969; Sament and Huott, 1969), with hypothermia (Prior, 1973; Williams and Spencer, 1958), and with transient decorticate states followed by varying degrees of recovery (Fischgold and Mathis, 1959). Since therapeutic hypothermia is not beneficial in the management of comatose states (Clifton et al., 2001; Harris et al., 2002), it has to be considered only in rare circumstances. Therefore, ECS can be taken as a sign of brain death only if neurological signs of cortical and brainstem functions are lacking, and intoxication and marked hypothermia can be excluded. A brain death syndrome at the neurological examination is based on brainstem death and does not exclude ongoing cortical activities reflected by EEG activity (Fig. 24.10) (Grigg et al., 1987; Ogata et al., 1988). To consider EEG activity with brainstem death as a pitfall of EEG in determining brain death, because brainstem death equals brain death, turns the logic upside down. Brainstem death does not mean brain death, defined as irreversible loss of functions of all parts of the brain. Ongoing EEG activity with isolated brainstem death proves this statement. In cases of primary brainstem lesions, the EEG is not only confirmatory but essential for correct diagnosis. The same is true for fulminant demyelinating polyradiculopathy resembling brainstem death (Drury et al., 1987; Marti-Masso et al., 1993; Stojkovic et al., 2001).

The relationship between brain death diagnosed on the basis of neurological and EEG examinations and respirator brain at autopsy has been reassessed (Leestma et al., 1984). Overly rigid criteria for the differentiation of ECS from the very low voltage output EEG and excess noise have been criticized (Horikawa et al., 2003; Spudis et al., 1984). In spite of certain shortcomings, EEG has proved to of paramount importance in the evaluation of brain death. Shortcomings are of a technical nature, as are conceptual misunderstandings, such as with primary brainstem death and the overinterpretation of artifacts. However, real cerebral EEG waves exclude brain death by definition. To bypass these difficulties, several attempts have been made to redefine brain death and to confine it to brainstem death (Rothstein, 1993). The concept of whole-brain death delivers high diagnostic practicability and certainty and has achieved a high level of acceptance in Western society (Bernat, 1992). There is no urgent need to change it to brainstem death or neocortical death.

{aplicarea formatarii "bold" asupra unor fragmente imi apartine}

Ce ziceti de nivelul de documentare la care au ajuns autorii acestei sectiuni si de modul clar in care au oferit sursele pentru fiecare afirmatie discutabila? smile.gif

PS: Daca eu tot incerc sa ma impac cu fundalul meu adventist (vezi topicul De ce mai suntem adventisti?), hai sa fac acelasi lucru cu nationalitatea mea. Un mic motiv de mandrie ar fi faptul ca printre cei care au contribuit la scrierea tratutului din care care am citat extensiv il gasim si pe Mircea Steriade, M.D., D.Sc. Professor, Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, Laval University, Quebec, Canada (ca perioada cea mai fertila si-a avut-o in Canada nu se pune).


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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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study_nature
post Jun 22 2010, 07:09 PM
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Daca am devenit prea tehnic cu ultima postare hai sa relansez discutia despre spirit in alt mod, intrebandu-va ceva mai personal:
Credeti ca e posibil ca scepticismul meu sa se datoreze faptului ca am fost botezat exact in ziua solstitiului de vara? De abia azi mi-am dat seama de aceasta coincidenta. Teo si ceilalti, ce ziceti?


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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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Martin Luther
post Jun 23 2010, 12:45 PM
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Studii, eu cred ca tu AI ALES sa fii sceptic, datorita conditiei tale intelectuale pregnante si pentru ca ASA iti place. Parerea mea e ca e bine totusi sa fii si "prunc"...nu numai "intelectual". Ma intelegi tu.


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Teologul
post Jun 23 2010, 04:18 PM
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Nu vad nici o legatura intre momentul botezului unei persoane si nivelul sau de credinta. Presupun ca a fost o gluma...
Pe de alta parte, m-am mai documentat in privinta traseului EEG la pacientii anesteziati, intreband cativa medici, si mi-au spus toti ca nu e izoelectric; mai precis, ca ar emite unde alfa, teta sau delta, in functie de profunzimea anesteziei.
Avand in vedere ca experiente similare NDE sunt traite si de consumatorii de droguri (LSD etc.), nu pot decat sa concluzionez ca in ambele situatii omul s-a aflat aproape de moarte, desi in al doilea caz situatia nu e evidenta. Hinduismul sustine ca prin consumul anumitor substante halucinogene, corpul astral si celelalte se desprind de cel somatic, ramanand legate printr-un cordon energetic foarte subtire (asa-numitul cordon de argint). Ele calatoresc in lumea astrala, inregistrand diferite evenimente care au loc acolo, inclusiv trecerea prin asa-numitul "bardo" (un pasaj de legatura cu lumea de dincolo de mormant). Exista si parerea conform careia aici s-ar aplica cuvintele lui David din Psalmul 23: "Chiar daca ar fi sa trec prin valea umbrei mortii, nu ma tem de nici un rau, caci Tu esti cu mine".


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"Nu recunosc alt semn al superioritatii umane decat bunatatea" (Ludwig van Beethoven)
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study_nature
post Jun 23 2010, 04:57 PM
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Teo, da a fost o gluma, incercam sa mai destind atmosfera si sa va impartasesc un detaliu interesant din biografia mea.
Sa-i intrebi si despre situatiile acestea:
QUOTE
Isoelectric EEG recordings have been found with the complete apallic syndrome (Ingvar and Brun, 1972), with intoxication and full recovery (Bennet et al., 1976; Bird and Plum, 1968; Haider et al., 1971; Mantz et al., 1971; Mellerio, 1969; Sament and Huott, 1969), with hypothermia (Prior, 1973; Williams and Spencer, 1958), and with transient decorticate states followed by varying degrees of recovery (Fischgold and Mathis, 1959).


Nu, Martin, nu inteleg.
Aha, deci eu mi-am ales conditia... Interesant!
Si imi place sa fiu sceptic... Hmmm. Acum da, imi place, dar te asigur ca m-am zbatut multa vreme ca sa nu fiu prins in acest "vartej" si multa vreme am petrecut incercand sa scap din el (ca majoritatea oamenilor credinciosi care primesc viziunea ca religia lor nu se potriveste cu realitatea). Privind in urma, ma amuza dar ma si intrinsteaza putin acele momente. Anyways, am depasit situatia si uite-ma ca sunt un om normal si implinit!


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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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