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Abuzul in BAZS
believer
post May 1 2010, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE (polihronu @ May 1 2010, 04:18 PM) *
Ma indoiesc ca parintii tai te-au pus sa dai recitaluri in public sau sa participi la competitii de specialitate.

Nu m-au pus pentru că n-am ajuns atāt de bun... Dar dacă o făceau nu era nici un abuz.


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thrak
post May 1 2010, 02:56 PM
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Putem numi aceasta abuz faptul ca majoritatea parintilor adventisti tin neaparat ca odrasele lor sa invete sa cante la un instrument ? Daca copilul are talent si tinde spre asa ceva, pot intelege.


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alm
post May 1 2010, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (icsicsics @ May 1 2010, 01:01 PM) *
ca sa-nteleg: "copiii predicatori" e un joc? pentru cine? pentru copil, pentru parinti, pentru comitet sau pentru organizatie? pentru cei carora le vorbeste?


hah! nici nu stii ce concurenta, intre instructorii care lucreaza cu copiii , genereaza acest "proiect" ? asa ca jocul se exinde dry.gif

eu cred ca moda asta cu diferitele proiecte si curente ,sunt abuzive ptr copii, De la copilul talentat care are placere sa studieze un instrument pana la cel pe care parintele il ajuta sa creasca frumos in papucii care ii sunt potriviti, intalnim destui chiar multi copiii abuzati de parinti sa studieze 3-4 "instrumente"( blockflaute, miniharfa, clopotel si alte tra la lauri) chiar daca bietul micut e de-a dreptul sufocat.

Ptr cei care suntem parinti sau vom fi candva, avem nevoie de atentie sporita , ptr a evita spalarile de creier pe care le facem poate involuntar copiiilor nostri. Am crescut cu asta, si chiar daca acum ne scuturam de epoca de trista amintire, totusi mai caram dupa noi betoanele astea . Cu ceva deprindere si educatie cred ca ne putem ajuta sa facem diferenta .



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icsicsics
post May 1 2010, 06:15 PM
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sa inteleg ca biserica vrea sa ofere oportunitati, cumva? si face asta in/cu public, cu pr si tam-tam? fix pe chestiuni controversate, asa cum sunt cele teologice sau dogmatice? experimente?

iar prin biserica intelegem "organizatia", nu?

cred ca privim la lucruri complet diferite... nu vorbim aici despre dezvoltarea motricitatii mici ai maini, despre acuitatea muzicala sau despre achizitia abilitatilor esentiale vietii. nici despre proiectul dezvoltarii individuale, articulat de catre actorii responsabili legal si implicati in cresterea copilului. ci despre continuturi improprii unui anumit nivel de dezvoltare a intelectului, printre altele!

eu incerc recursul la argument si primesc explicatii, justificari si disculpari. pot sa am asteptari nitel mai mari?

atunci cand se concepe un proiect/program educational, eminenta cenusie ce livreaza respectivul demers de formare pastreaza clar in cap si-n proiect un scop - a, niste obiective (fie ele operationale, educative etc.) - b si niscaiva elemente de fundamentare - c. se regasesc astea intre vorbele ce insotesc "copiii predicatori"? dar in discutia de aici?

nu am spus ca ideea e buna sau rea, ca e corecta sau incorecta. incercam sa exploram si sa vedem ce e dincolo de ea sau ne multumim a dezasambla raspunsurile interlocutorilor?


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myosotis
post May 1 2010, 09:44 PM
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Abuzul in BAZS - legat de copiii predicatori, dar nu numai - consta si in faptul ca parintii azs, ca niste perfectionisti cumsecade, se asteapta ca odrasla sa stie de toate. Sa invete la pian sa-l laude pe Domnul, sa zica poezii, sa cante fie ca are voce sau ba, sa urce la amvon si sa straluceasca drept mica lor steluta ce este, viitor mare predicator de multe suflete la Domnul aducator. Stiu copii care au fost fortati sa invete pian pentru ca sa presteze la biserica si care, desi talentati, au ajuns sa urasca si pianul si parintii (stati linistiti, nu e cazul meu, eu chiuleam de la orele de pian pur si simplu... cu lunile biggrin.gif ). Cand vom pricepe oare ca nu suntem buni la toate, ca este ok sa ne recunoastem limitele? Nu e penibil ca ajung sa se reproduca in biserica tot felul de specimene care adesea n-au nimic de-a face cu domeniul respectiv?

Referitor la copiii predicatori... tot o forma de spalare a creierului. Dupa cum spuneam si alta data, daca as avea un copil, pana pe la adolescenta ar afla de la mine doar ca exista Dumnezeu si ca este personal interesat de noi, ca ne este Tata. Mai departe... l-as lasa sa hotarasca exact cat crede, ce si cum. E un domeniu in care ne schilodim copiii cu mana noastra, iar eu pur si simplu detest asta.

Ca mic exemplu, canta copiii nostri de numa "Domnu' iubirea ce mantuieste.../Mi-a dat pe Fiul, fiu al maririi/Prin Evanghelie El tot ma cheama..." Stai nitel. Ce-i aia mantuire? Care-i faza cu Evanghelia care cheama? Si ce-i aia Evanghelia? Oameni buni, sa le lasam copiilor nostri copilaria. Doar asa vor fi suficient de intregi la minte si suflet cat sa-i intereseze vreodata in mod real si personal Dumnezeul pe care li-L indesam pe gat cat inca nici nu le-au dat dintii.

PS: Believer, daca tu pricepi mai multe de la copiii predicatori decat din predica ta, io n-as vrea sa fiu in sala cand predici.


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myosotis
post May 3 2010, 09:47 AM
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Am primit aprobarea de a posta aici urmatorul schimb de emailuri:

"Hello,

my name is MargiAnne Isaia, MD, MPH, and I initiated the website www.reinviesperanta.com for Romanian speaking people.
My activity is primarily focused on helping victims of sexual abuse. I received heart-breaking messages from many victims. Last year, I informed you about what I was told by some victims or loved ones.
There are cases of mismanagement by the leadership of the Romanian Adventist church, which victimize the victims and covers up the abusers. Everything is so similar to the approach of the Roman Catholic Church regarding this social phenomenon.

After more than one year since I wrote to the Romanian Union regarding two cases of pedophiles (a pastor and an evangelist), the situation is like nothing happened. People in the church are misinformed, the victims and their families continue to suffer, pastors have no idea how to address that issue, a professor from the Adventist Seminary promotes the idea that the victims are mentally ill.

Because of this attitude toward victims in our Romanian Adventist church, my advocacy group is considering the possibility of joining with Survivor Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) in order to get help from outside our church.
As you know from the situation in Catholic Church, the victims are advocating for stopping the crime of abuse, and for making the spiritual leaders responsible for their conduct of keeping the secret. This is a calling for social justice, as an act of love for victims, potential victims and abusers.
My Romanian advocacy group will move forward to using mass media to inform about the attitude of the Romanian Adventist Leadership which is more interested in the image of the church. With raising awareness and community-organizing, the process will continue toward advocacy in the area of legislation.
In Romania, there are problems with the legislation, which states that if the crime of abuse was committed more than 8 years ago, the abuser is not accountable.
As you know, SNAP is an international organization which helps victims from all religious backgrounds.

I am wondering if you can help in this matter, because I didn't hear that you got involved until now.

Best regards,
Dr. MargiAnne Isaia"

Raspunsul:

"Dear Sister Isaia,

Thank you for informing our division about your plans in this important
issue of abuse in the church.
Allow us, however, to tell you that, from your messages you give the
impression that you are not well informed about the Euro-Africa position
on the issue of abuse.
Since long ago, we are totaly against any form of abuse and any type of
covering up, etc. We have put in place many actions for preventing and
reporting abuse, and our guidelines are operational in all our
territories, including Romania.
Although some Romanian leaders of the past might have shown certain
reluctancy to take actions on this issue, in an attitude that is clearly
residual of former times, the present officers are fully supportive of
our principles.
Your page web just doubles what our own organizations are doing in the
same
direction.
Please, visit, for exemple, our web page www.itfaces.me
and inform yourselve abour our deep involvement in www.enditnow.org
My secretary will send to you our most recent guidelines for preventing
and reporting abuse in the EUD.
Before risking yourselve in any legal action, that could result in
calomny or defamation, please get your lawyers informed about the whole
truth about our division.
We are ready to work together with whoever wants to help us in this
direction. This will be much more useful for all than fighting against
us on a issue in which we might be ahead of you.

God bless you abondantly in any respect,

Yours at His service,

Roberto Badenas
Education, Family Ministries and Chaplaincy Director"

Cum vi se pare raspunsul asta din partea lui Roberto Badenas?

Aveti senzatia, intr-adevar, ca actuala conducere este transparenta in aceasta privinta si impartaseste opiniile bisericii mondiale in lupta anti-abuz? (Pare rau ca e in english.)

Ce altceva va mai "loveste" referitor la raspunsul acesta?


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skeptic
post May 3 2010, 10:00 AM
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QUOTE (myosotis @ May 3 2010, 12:47 PM) *
Ce altceva va mai "loveste" referitor la raspunsul acesta?


Apropourile cu avocatii.


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polihronu
post May 3 2010, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE (myosotis @ May 3 2010, 12:47 PM) *
Although some Romanian leaders of the past might have shown certain
reluctancy to take actions on this issue, in an attitude that is clearly
residual of former times, the present officers are fully supportive of
our principles...

This will be much more useful for all than fighting against
us on a issue in which we might be ahead of you.

Adorabile aceste doua pasaje.


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"Onestitatea intelectuala este o conditie necesara a fericirii" - Paine
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polihronu
post May 3 2010, 11:13 AM
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Tocmai i-am trimis lui Roberto Badenas urmatorul email:

QUOTE
Dear Roberto,

I am a former Adventist from Romania who has only recently left the church. I have been a member for 18 years, but I left a month ago, when I found out that a known pedophile (who had been disfellowshiped a year ago) had been re-baptized into the Adventist church without having made amends, without having undergone counseling and therapy, without even acknowledging the abuses perpetrated (for which he was disfellowshiped in the first place).

Dr. MargiAnne Isaia, who is somewhat of a friend, has been kind enough to share with me your reply to an email she had written to inform the division leaders of her actions against sexual abuse and cover-up in the Romanian church. I find two of your statements deeply disturbing:

Although some Romanian leaders of the past might have shown certain
reluctancy to take actions on this issue, in an attitude that is clearly
residual of former times, the present officers are fully supportive of
our principles...

First of all, your attempt at some honesty about past practices of Romanian leaders is appreciated. But it's also useless, as long as there are no repercussions - not even an actual apology by those who have for so long ignored the abuses and their victims. Secondly, you're utterly mistaken to believe that "the present officers are fully supportive of our principles". You're either easily duped, or you're confusing words for actions. The Romanian Union hasn't even promoted the website you have indicated (itfaces.me). I - a former Adventist - am probably the first Romanian to advertise and link to this website on my personal blog. When it comes to mentalities and actual help, things are just bad - pastors are uneducated about sexual abuse, leaders are not willing to even address the issue, there is a complete lack of trained assistance (Teodora Goran is a dear cousin of mine, but without any knowledge or competence for such matters). A sad majority of pastors still preach against seeking psychological assistance. And you might not believe, but quite a few believe that the victims of sexual abuse are the instigators of the abuse and the only ones to blame. "Supportive of our principles?" You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

This will be much more useful for all than fighting against
us on a issue in which we might be ahead of you.

This was simply hilarious. The itfaces.me website only dates from a year ago - and is an obvious response to, among other things, the Romanian pedophilia scandal. The same webdesigner has produced the website of the Romanian Union. Let's be serious. Dr. Isaia had started her ministry (and her website) at least a couple of years earlier, and she's part of the very reason for the existence of itfaces.me.

I plead with you to search your conscience and stop defending the indefensible - the moral turpitude promoted by ignorance, willful misinformation and aggressive shamelessness among the Romanian Adventist leadership. YOU are the ones who have to catch up - to reality, to kind and healing action, to Christianity.

With best wishes,


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"Onestitatea intelectuala este o conditie necesara a fericirii" - Paine
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eretik
post May 3 2010, 11:19 AM
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OUCH, i-ai zis-o.
Toti liderii nostri sunt atat de slab pregatiti, sau care-i faza?
Mai e si smecher pe deasupra.
Auzi la el:

QUOTE
Before risking yourselve in any legal action, that could result in
calomny or defamation, please get your lawyers informed about the whole
truth about our division.
We are ready to work together with whoever wants to help us in this
direction. This will be much more useful for all than fighting against
us on a issue in which we might be ahead of you.


--------------------
"...But you won't listen to reason. It's like playing Chess with a pigeon; no matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like it's victorious."
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kla
post May 3 2010, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE (polihronu @ May 3 2010, 02:13 PM) *
Tocmai i-am trimis lui Roberto Badenas urmatorul email:

Ca sa parafrazez o reclama:
Dur, taica, dur!
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bnc
post May 3 2010, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (polihronu @ May 1 2010, 02:18 PM) *
Ma indoiesc ca parintii tai te-au pus sa dai recitaluri in public sau sa participi la competitii de specialitate.


Da ce ti se par "de specialitate" competitiile la care participa?


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polihronu
post May 3 2010, 11:48 AM
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Era doar o paralela ilustrativa, nu incercam sa spun ca se organizeaza competitii de specialitate pentru copiii predicatori. Sau poate nu stiu eu smile.gif


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study_nature
post May 3 2010, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (polihronu @ May 3 2010, 02:13 PM) *
Tocmai i-am trimis lui Roberto Badenas urmatorul email:


Poli, apreciez din ce in ce mai mult stilul si continutul scrierilor tale. Iar scrisoarea pe care i-ai scris-o lui Roberto reuseste sa fie si rational-echilibrata, dar si sa ia taurul de coarne cu pasiunea celui care militeaza pentru una dintre cele mai drepte cauze. Pe langa agerimea ideilor tale, frazele greoaie ale lui Badenas isi evidentiaza si mai mult opacitatea si substratul arogant si plin de multumire de sine care le sustine, avand ceea ce vorbitorii de engleza numesc smugness: "exhibiting or feeling great or offensive satisfaction with oneself or with one's situation; self-righteously complacent". Ca tot veni vorba de engleza, e incomparabila gura de aer proaspat pe care o aduce exprimarea ta, inglishul monsieurului administrator l-ar impinge sa-si roada unghiile de nervozitate in eventualitatea evaluarii in fata unei ipotetice comisii obiective.

Daca ar exista o petitie intr-o forma asemanatoare scrisorii tale, Poli, as fi primul care ar semna-o, si chiar de doua ori: si in numele agnosticului, si in numele adventistului care sunt! smile.gif


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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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polihronu
post May 3 2010, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (study_nature @ May 3 2010, 08:42 PM) *
Poli, apreciez...

Daca ar exista o petitie intr-o forma asemanatoare scrisorii tale, Poli, as fi primul care ar semna-o, si chiar de doua ori: si in numele agnosticului, si in numele adventistului care sunt! smile.gif

Multam, draga st_ature. Chiar exista (cred ca a pomenit-o myo) ideea unei petitii. Inca ma gindesc cui ar trebui adresata si care ar fi exact scopul vizat.


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study_nature
post May 3 2010, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (study_nature @ May 3 2010, 08:42 PM) *
Daca ar exista o petitie intr-o forma asemanatoare scrisorii tale, Poli, as fi primul care ar semna-o, si chiar de doua ori: si in numele agnosticului, si in numele adventistului care sunt! smile.gif


Pentru ca as putea ridica suspiciuni de schizofrenie religioasa cu afirmatia de mai sus, declar solemn ca eu sunt agnostic.
Ma identific cu adventismul in masura in care exista si o forma de adventism progresist, cultural, schitat in mod imperfect aici si in masura in care exista comunitati in care concomitent cu raportarea si interactiunea cu adventismul mainstream se ofera si liberatate de gandire si de exprimare . Comunitati printre care includ si OSC-ul nostru.


--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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polihronu
post May 3 2010, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (study_nature @ May 3 2010, 09:09 PM) *
Pentru ca as putea ridica suspiciuni de schizofrenie religioasa cu afirmatia de mai sus, declar solemn ca eu sunt agnostic.

Stai calm, noua - aici, la OSC - ne plac oamenii complecsi, ba chiar complicati. Uita-te, rogu-te, macar la Teologul smile.gif


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study_nature
post May 3 2010, 06:58 PM
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Specimene de english in use de la cel care ne reprezinta/ne reprezenta:

QUOTE
Allow us, however, to tell you that, from your messages you give the
impression that you are not well informed about the Euro-Africa position
on the issue of abuse.
(...)
Please, visit, for exemple, our web page www.itfaces.me
and inform yourselve abour our deep involvement in www.enditnow.org
(...)
Before risking yourselve in any legal action, that could result in
calomny or defamation, please get your lawyers informed about the whole
truth about our division.

Trecand cu vederea forma shtirba (aproape edentata tongue.gif ), sa ne aplecam putin asupra intelesului ultimului paragraf selectat de mine din replica lui Badenas:

Is it just me, sau prin folosirea cuvantului "risking" dl Badenas scapa printre dinti o amenintare?
Din nou si din nou, "calomny" [sic!] si defamation se pare ca sunt temerile cele mai acute ale oficialilor nostri.
Cat despre "please get your lawyers informed", mi se pare mie sau ar fi putin spus ca aceste cuvinte sunt nepotrivite? As zice mai degraba ca lasa sa se intrevada o doza de agresivitate. Si v-as mai intreba - de ce zice dl Badenas lucrurile acestea referitoare la "legal action"?

Singurul loc in care MargiAnne face afirmatii apartinand domeniului juridic este acesta:
QUOTE
With raising awareness and community-organizing, the process will continue toward advocacy in the area of legislation.
In Romania, there are problems with the legislation, which states that if the crime of abuse was committed more than 8 years ago, the abuser is not accountable.


Stiu ca printre membrii nostri sunt cativa care au cunostinte de drept, i-as ruga sa analizeze referirile celor doi la acest subiect. Eu vad ca MargiAnne scrie despre actiuni de gen lobbying cinstit care sa contribuie la reformarea legislatiei aberante a carei ilustrare sadica o gasim chiar in tomurile legislative din tarisoara noastra dedicate abuzului, pe cand Roberto sare cat colo si se si vede dat in judecata. De ce sa simta cu musca pe caciula in asemenea hal incat sa inteleaga ceva complet aiurea si sa mai si riposteze cu amenintari imperfect mascate?

Sa-mi fie cu iertaciune daca citatele de mai sus sunt greseli de tipar preluate via copy-paste sau daca gandirea mea interpretativa se adapa dintr-un izvor paranoid al mintii si nu din experienta in BAZS...


--------------------
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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study_nature
post May 3 2010, 07:01 PM
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Religia: agnostic



QUOTE (polihronu @ May 3 2010, 09:38 PM) *
Stai calm, noua - aici, la OSC - ne plac oamenii complecsi, ba chiar complicati. Uita-te, rogu-te, macar la Teologul smile.gif


Thanx!
Eu inca mai tind sa cred ca Teo e un saltimbanc istetz care de fapt are intentia sa ia in deradere principiile AZS atunci cand isi exprima conceptiile total implauzibile. biggrin.gif


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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10, 1787; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 900-906.
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polihronu
post May 3 2010, 07:09 PM
Post #40


cititor in stele
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Religia: iudeo-crestin agnostic si, la nevoie, ateu



QUOTE (study_nature @ May 3 2010, 09:58 PM) *
Sa-mi fie cu iertaciune daca citatele de mai sus sunt greseli de tipar preluate via copy-paste sau daca gandirea mea interpretativa se adapa dintr-un izvor paranoic al mintii si nu din experienta in BAZS...

Mie mi s-a parut atit de banal (adica tipic obsesiei cu imaginea bisericii specifica liderului AZS) reflexul juridic al lui Badenas ca nici nu l-am mai comentat. Cred insa ca Badenas, instruit deja de liderii din Ro in legatura cu d-na Isaia si maleficele ei intentii, recurge la doctrina bush-ista a asa-numitelor preemptive strikes. Nu discuta cu ea, ci cu imaginea pe care i-au inoculat-o despre ea dimbovitenii nostri.


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"Omul care spune adevarul din cinism este un mincinos" - Bonhoeffer
"Onestitatea intelectuala este o conditie necesara a fericirii" - Paine
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